Alternative Filesystem

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panderssen

Alternative Filesystem

Post by panderssen »

After years of playing around with virtualized Linux distros, RedHat, SuSE, Gentoo, Gobo at first, (K)Ubuntu and now Linux Mint have convinced me to switch - first I was doing day-to-day stuff on Linux Mint through VirtualBox on an XP host, and now I am running on a real (dual-boot) installation.

I think the only thing that still really irks me about Linux is the legacy filesystem structure. It is my own failing, to be sure, that I am so obsessive and anal that I have to know where everything is, what everything does, etc.

However, I think an implementation of the GoboHide kernal patch, alongside your brilliant Software Depot would make a great linux distro absolutely perfect in my eyes!

So, does anyone else care about filesystem elegance, or is it just me?
Husse

Re: Alternative Filesystem

Post by Husse »

filesystem elegance
Frankly - I don't give a damn - but I do care for filesystem robustness and speed :lol:
Fred

Re: Alternative Filesystem

Post by Fred »

panderssen wrote:
After years of playing around with virtualized Linux distros, RedHat, SuSE, Gentoo, Gobo at first, (K)Ubuntu and now Linux Mint have convinced me to switch
Greetings and welcome to the Mint community. From the paragraph above it appears that you are already familiar with Linux. I think you will find that Mint is a step up from (K)Ubuntu. Even though it is built on a Ubuntu base and uses the Ubuntu repos, Clem and company have done a considerable amount of refining to make a more stable and polished system.
I think the only thing that still really irks me about Linux is the legacy filesystem structure. It is my own failing, to be sure, that I am so obsessive and anal that I have to know where everything is, what everything does, etc.
You use the term "legacy file system" as if it were a negative. Time tested, tried and true might be a better view of the Unix/Linux file system. I would have thought that you would have already learned where things are in the file system, after using it for years. Actually, everything is grouped pretty well. All user programs in one place, all files necessary for booting in one place, all temporary files in one place, all the individual users' config files in one place, all the individual users' data in one place, ....etc. How much more organized would you like it to be?

How would hiding the file system help you know where everything is. Seems to me you are saying; "If I can't see it, it isn't there." Then the only way you could account for the way the system worked would be "magic." I don't see how this could ease your "obsession," that you referenced above.
So, does anyone else care about filesystem elegance, or is it just me?
As you might have already guessed, I think the Unix/Linux file system is quite elegant the way it is. The Unix/Linux file system is a complete and symmetric operating system world unto itself. It can be very flexibly implemented to function well in a variety of applications and hardware. It is robust and built to offer the individual user a multitude of options. It certainly isn't as disorganized, rigid and constrained as that other big operating system. I forget its' name right now. :-)

If there was a way to do it, I might be willing to go along with changing the names of the folders in the file system. I would suggest more descriptive French names. Even though I don't speak French I always thought the French language was quite pleasing to the ear. It is a beautiful sounding Language. So you see, we did find some common ground. :-)

Below is a link to a thread that might be of interest to you. There is probably more information there than you wanted to know, but knowledge is empowering. :-)

http://www.linuxmint.com/forum/viewtopi ... 18&t=11502

Fred
rec9140

Re: Alternative Filesystem

Post by rec9140 »

panderssen wrote:I think the only thing that still really irks me about Linux is the legacy filesystem structure. It is my own failing, to be sure, that I am so obsessive and anal that I have to know where everything is, what everything does, etc.

However, I think an implementation of the GoboHide kernal patch, alongside your brilliant Software Depot would make a great linux distro absolutely perfect in my eyes!

So, does anyone else care about filesystem elegance, or is it just me?
I am afraid I think its just you.

I don't get what this GoboHide does for you that makes the file system any better, and what elegance does the file system need??

I obviously don't get it.
panderssen

Re: Alternative Filesystem

Post by panderssen »

Greetings and welcome to the Mint community. From the paragraph above it appears that you are already familiar with Linux. I think you will find that Mint is a step up from (K)Ubuntu. Even though it is built on a Ubuntu base and uses the Ubuntu repos, Clem and company have done a considerable amount of refining to make a more stable and polished system.
I do agree that Linux Mint is the most refined and polished distro I am familiar with - that's one of the reasons I chose it. Being able to install packages at the command line or compile them from source does not imply the desire to do so; optimally the entire interface should be graphical, so that as many people as possible can use it and the installation base grows, which equals more development and fixes.
You use the term "legacy file system" as if it were a negative. Time tested, tried and true might be a better view of the Unix/Linux file system. I would have thought that you would have already learned where things are in the file system, after using it for years. Actually, everything is grouped pretty well. All user programs in one place, all files necessary for booting in one place, all temporary files in one place, all the individual users' config files in one place, all the individual users' data in one place, ....etc. How much more organized would you like it to be?
How would hiding the file system help you know where everything is. Seems to me you are saying; "If I can't see it, it isn't there." Then the only way you could account for the way the system worked would be "magic." I don't see how this could ease your "obsession," that you referenced above.
Calling the filesystem hierarchy 'time-tested, tried and true' may be accurate, but the only difference between a time-tested system and a novel one is time. In time, any new system can become the 'tried and true' standard, and arguing against making a change simply because it is a change doesn't work anywhere else in the world, so why in Linux? 'A place for everything and everything in its place' is great, but it doesn't mean you can't change the names or the arrangement of those places.

Also, GoboHide does not merely hide the legacy hierarchy to make it look prettier. It actually uses a completely new hierarchy, while keeping the legacy hierarchy (hidden from view and entirely full of symlinks) for packages that won't play nice with the Gobo hierarchy.
As you might have already guessed, I think the Unix/Linux file system is quite elegant the way it is. The Unix/Linux file system is a complete and symmetric operating system world unto itself. It can be very flexibly implemented to function well in a variety of applications and hardware. It is robust and built to offer the individual user a multitude of options. It certainly isn't as disorganized, rigid and constrained as that other big operating system. I forget its' name right now. :-)
If there was a way to do it, I might be willing to go along with changing the names of the folders in the file system. I would suggest more descriptive French names. Even though I don't speak French I always thought the French language was quite pleasing to the ear. It is a beautiful sounding Language. So you see, we did find some common ground. :-)
One of the great things about the Gobo filesystem is that it is user-customizable, meaning that it can change depending on the install language, so the Programs directory becomes Programmes in Britain and Programmes in France (quelle coincidence!) or Programma's in the Netherlands. As far as elegance goes, nothing is moreso than being able to customize the names directories in which each file has a clear, easy-to-find place.
panderssen

Re: Alternative Filesystem

Post by panderssen »

I have customized directory names and a fairly novel directory structure in my installation of (the OS which shall remain nameless), and I doubt anyone would say Linux isn't able to do something (nameless OS) can do, or that there's anything it shouldn't be able to do.

The simple fact is, despite the apparent difficulty, superficiality and unorthodoxness(?) of the change I propose, it would help more users cross the threshhold into the Land of Linux.
Lantesh

Re: Alternative Filesystem

Post by Lantesh »

While I can understand your desire to want to customize the file system to what you feel is more efficient for you, I think you should also open yourself up to the fact that other people might feel the current system is already a great system. Personally I like it just the way it is. Now that does not mean I am closed minded, and I think if you can adopt something else to better suit your taste then by all means go for it. I do however think you are going to find that the majority of users are not going to be interested in following your lead. The current system is well laid out, and easy to use. I always say don't fix what ain't broke.
panderssen

Re: Alternative Filesystem

Post by panderssen »

Lantesh wrote:While I can understand your desire to want to customize the file system to what you feel is more efficient for you, I think you should also open yourself up to the fact that other people might feel the current system is already a great system. Personally I like it just the way it is. Now that does not mean I am closed minded, and I think if you can adopt something else to better suit your taste then by all means go for it. I do however think you are going to find that the majority of users are not going to be interested in following your lead. The current system is well laid out, and easy to use. I always say don't fix what ain't broke.
I do think that there are many like me who desire to change the filesystem in a similar way to that done by Gobo, and I recognize that we are a minority. It's just that I wish this minority would work together to take a distro which is already fantastically good, such as Mint or Ubuntu, and change it in this way, instead of building a distro from the ground up such as GoboLinux, because it is the community behind Mint/Ubuntu and its installation base (and software base) which is ultimately its greatest strength.
rec9140

Re: Alternative Filesystem

Post by rec9140 »

panderssen wrote:The simple fact is, despite the apparent difficulty, superficiality and unorthodoxness(?) of the change I propose, it would help more users cross the threshhold into the Land of Linux.
How? ? ? ? ? ??? :?: :?

I think that most here including myself, don't see how this helps especially if you have to symlink back to things to make programs compatible. What if things won't work with the symlink?

Linux has enough issues with program installation as it is with out making any more of a hassle. Doing what you propose that could break things and make it even more difficult to install programs would most certainly not help converting from winslop to Linux be it Mint KDE or some other distro. Things that I see that help convert are VMWare Player/Server and wubi as it gives people a safety net go back to when things don't work for a task or equivalent programs not available on linux especially custom programs.

There are certain givens that you have to take as part of the package for an OS, in linux that's the file system.

I don't see how for the basic file system items like etc, usr, var, bin et al that language makes any bigger of an issue be it english or non english. If the use user is non english and wants to create a directory and call ie bier, bira or what ever I don't see the current file system causing an issue with that.

I am just not seeing the supporting points for the change your proposing. If it was an option with a big red screen and flashing text, and sirens that you could install this under your own peril of screwing things up, fine, but as the default no way. Supporting this and wholesale flat out changing it I don't see as being a choice. Just as dmraid support could be an option, this could be an option for those that want/need it. Options are not a problem, but to convert to only this, um, no.
smartass

Re: Alternative Filesystem

Post by smartass »

gobo actualy has everything figured out, cauze the symlinks ensure compatibility with packages for almost any other distro, so some spit and polish on the existing symlink system and a couple of other compatibility dudaads, and you could build your own hybrid gobo/somethingyoulike distro with
[root@home] apt-get -i list-of-other-distro-core-packages
after ofcourse instaling apt-get and adding the correct repos
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